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Transcript
Hello Welcome to the MMQB NFL podcast.
I'm Connor Orr, and that deafening silence over to my right is the absence of Albert Breer.
He is on vacation, but the MMQB podcast never rests.
We have an absolutely banging show lineup this week full of guests.
In a couple of minutes, we're going to get to my conversation with my good pal, James Palmer.
He's at BR.
He was with NFL Network.
He was with Underdog.
He is here, there and everywhere.
He is one of the great league insiders, also one of the great people.
And we are going to talk about what we need to watch for over the first couple of days of NFL training camps because I'm telling you, it's coming right around the corner.
This is your primer for a league-wide football fan.
And on Thursday, We have an analytics expert from an NFL team that's going to walk us through some of the advancements in coaching decision-making and team decision making, and what analytics are giving us now and what they're going to be able to give us in the future.
If you love ball, this is a great week of podcasts, and I appreciate you for sticking around.
Here comes James.
So, as promised, uh, you know, with, without Albert here, and here's the thing, when I go away, I always tell Breer not to Wally Pit me.
And then he goes out and gets like, not only big-name people, but like the best-looking big-name people.
So I'll leave one time and like Brady Quinn will come in.
I'll leave one time.
Like Brady Quinn, like, you know, I know I, I spend a lot of time on the podcast talking about how good-looking Brady Quinn is, but like he's also like a top five good-looking guy, I would say in football .
And so I'm looking through my Rolodex and I'm like, all right, gotta have a, I gotta bring the body, I gotta bring the face, I gotta bring the info.
Um, former Ohio State quarterback James Palmer, uh, here, uh.
I love the first thing you say, gotta bring the body.
And I was like, that is not the first thing it's brought up about me to anyone.
Um, I don't even know my wife would be the first thing she'd said is the body.
What's up, buddy ?
Dude, it is, this is the best.
This is the best.
I mean, I, I, when you called, you could , you're like, hey, I would love for you to jump on, and I just, I'll be your huckleberry.
I sent back Val Kilmer, giving you a wink and said, oh, let's, let's Boogie Con, man.
Let's go.
I'm, I'm excited.
James Palmer here, there and everywhere.
Uh, we were colleagues at, uh, NFL Network, uh, for a good long while.
We co-hosted an ill-fated podcast called Access or Opinion that not even our parents heard.
And, uh, now we're back just chopping it up during the summer months.
And I told James, I really want to talk about because I sometimes I feel like as fans, you arrive at training camp.
A little bit lost, right?
Because you disappear for the summer.
This is especially true when we have the World Cup and FIFA's rigging all these games and, and you have no idea what's happening.
And then you, you, you've turned around and you say, oh, what's happening in the NFL?
What are we doing now?
And so we each picked two things that like, if you're going to be the savvy NFL fan, it's something that you need to be watching because it's going to help tell the story of the 2026 season.
I want you to go first, James, because you brought up something.
In Minnesota that I feel like, like it happened.
And then the Miles Garrett thing happened, and then free agency happened and then the draft happened, and then AJ Brown happened and a couple other stories involving the NFL and coaches and all sorts of stuff that we talked about during the summer.
And, uh, but this one.
I is the quarterback battle in Minnesota is, is, is huge, and, and I think we need to get into this a little bit.
We do, because it has layers and , and, and the premise of this was, what do NFL fans need to focus on and, and keep their eye out on in the first week?
Yes, first week of so the first thing that I thought of was, you know, we've done this in Bennett training camps every day in the dog days, uh, you know, forever with our notebooks con, and it's like charting every throw.
Looking at every single thing because this is the only time as reporters and media members you get to watch every single minute of practice.
I don't know about you, but I'm an early arriver.
I mean, I am like, let's see who the first guy on the field is.
I like sending that tweet out like, oh yeah, oh, you know, Jaquan McMillan is.
The first guy out on the field.
Um, and so, like, I, I, this is a time in a situation where, you know, everybody's gonna go, who's got the first rep?
Who's got the first rep in this period?
Is it Kyler Murray?
Is it JJ McCarthy?
Everything will be charted from 7 on 7 completion percentage to 11 on 11.
And I, I know a lot of people believe, and I include myself in this, Connor, that Kyler Murray has the upper hand heading into camp.
Yes.
And he's probably in most people's minds, the, the more likely starter.
But the reason I wanted to kinda, like, really pick this one in is that Everything that has surrounded it.
Kevin O'Connell has been very open, like, I know, I'm gonna tell you guys everything about this quarterback competition.
That's not normally the case, right?
You don't hear head coaches go, oh, no, I'm gonna be like super transparent about who's leading, who's, you know, who's taking the lead, who didn't.
Have a good day.
I was like, wow, that's great.
And he wants to put them in really unique situations, really difficult spots.
How does he create that?
I wanna see that week one.
How does he create these situations he's talking about for both of these guys?
And, and to me, the number one thing, and then I, I, I want your opinion on this is, will Kyler Murray change?
Like, are we gonna see it in the first week?
He wants him to play from the pocket for 7 seasons, he has not played from the pocket.
He's played it essentially his way.
I think he went to Minnesota with an open mind, thinking this is the guy that can get me to play a little bit different style of offense here.
Let's see if Kyler takes the time.
That he has during this break because he, he, he did say he's a little bit behind and with splitting the reps, um, in terms of understanding, grasping the entire offense.
Did he put the extra work in, have it down pat, and does he play the way that Kevin's gonna teach him?
I think we can start to maybe see that week one, and that's, I think, to me the biggest part.
I agree.
And so here, so I did 100 bold predictions, uh, back at the beginning of June, the hardest working guy I know, honestly.
They really are.
It was to commemorate 100 days, uh, leading up to the NFL season.
And I thought that the breakdown of starts would go in this order, Kyler Murray, Carson Wentz, and JJ McCarthy, uh, with Carson Wentz, I think, taking more.
Here's why I think that.
Kevin O'Connell is the kind of guy like McVeigh in a similar way, that's like, I can draw it up, right?
Where, I get the receiver with a step, and I just need you to put the ball there.
I don't care who you are.
I don't care what you look like.
I don't care what round you're drafted in.
I need you to put the ball there.
And for everybody that I think is assuming that Kyler Murray, like, I, I feel like we're in a similar spot as football watchers, as when Russ left Seattle, where we're like, oh, now he's going to cook.
Now he's gonna be unencumbered.
Now they're gonna pull the restrictor plates off, when maybe Cliff Kingsbury, who's known the kid since he's in high school, kind of like, you know, have the right system for him, you know.
Totally.
I watched him play in high school, I remember in person, uh, down there in Texas.
I, I'm just, I'm just, like, I, you, you, you, you brought something up there, Connor, that to me stands out when you're like, he wants it to be exactly there on time.
You know, the route's gonna be run.
Justin Jefferson, let's just say it frankly, is gonna be open, um, like the offense sets him up to succeed.
He puts Jeff Jefferson all over the field.
I, I, I wanna know how he starts to maybe take this.
This is a guy that is off to arguably, I was looking at the stats, the best start of a receiver ever.
Like, ever.
Through the 1st 5 years, it's the best start ever.
And I was having this conversation and I, and I thought about Justin Jefferson's part of this because that's the other part you should keep an eye on during this quarterback battle is Steve Smith and I on our show were having this lengthy conversation about AJ Brown, but it pertains to Justin Jefferson where it's about legacy.
And these guys understand when they're at the top of the top, that they have an opportunity to have a legendary career, to be mentioned for all of eternity, really, with the greatest of all time.
They don't want to squander a season of that.
That was part of AJ Brown's frustration.
Like, I'm one of the hardest workers on the planet.
I am one of the best receivers on the planet.
I'm in a great offense, and if this doesn't happen, every year wasted is extremely frustrating.
Does Justin Jefferson ever get to that point with the situation he has been at in, in Minnesota?
I think he's been the model citizen.
I think he handled last year very, very well.
Is there a breaking point there, you think, and a reason why we should be watching camp?
Exactly, because we have these teams now, like the NFL is fractured into teams that will trade for established star players and they'll give up picks.
And, you know, I, I want to say like the F them picks philosophy.
It, it's overblown, but I think that there are teams that are willing to sacrifice capital for Justin Jefferson at he's 27 turned, I think this is his age 28 season.
But of the last 4 seasons, he's been in the NFL to have been first-team All-Pro, to have been second-team All-Pro.
You're right.
He's on a tremendous trajectory, which is why to kind of, uh, uh, dovetail it back to, uh, the beginning of your conversation, James, is that I think that O'Connell is being fully transparent with this because this is a pressure cooker situation.
This is not.
Um, and I think this is Dan Campbell.
This is Demio Ryan's rubbing off on offenses too, and I'll tell you why.
This is no longer about building confidence.
It's about putting you in your most uncomfortable situations down after down, minute after minute throughout the entirety of practice so that the game feels easier.
Like the, the days of, you know, we're going to take it easy, we're not going to turn the fire hose on, that's done.
Uh, Dan Campbell's shown what's possible if you just beat the crap out of everybody for, you know, even in this modern football.
Andy Reid has done it for a number of years.
Andy Reid's done it.
Damio Ryan's has done it.
Uh, I think Mike McDonald, uh, uh, you know, to some degree, did it in Seattle where it's like , hey, uh, you got to learn all this or you're not playing.
And so for Kevin O'Connell, I, I, I think it's an encouraging pivot because it's like, listen, guys, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to tell everybody how I viewed it.
Everybody's going to be able to see it.
They're going to have eyes.
And by, by the second preseason game, We're going to have a pretty good idea of who's playing with the ones, who's throwing to Justin Jefferson all the time, you know, who's taking all the snaps.
And it's like, you know, it's, it's, you know what , or get off the pot.
But that first week, it's all about showing up with the right attitude, with a complete grasp of the playbook.
And I'm curious your take on this.
I don't think that JJ McCarthy had that reputation going into last.
This year when everyone thought, oh great, he's sitting for a whole season, he's gonna be like, you know, it's gonna be like a, a red shirt year.
Not the case, at least how I understood it.
No, I, I, I'm, I'm on board with you, and, and that part with JJ which we haven't gotten to, we've talked to Kyler, is, is fascinating to me because one, the general manager who picked him is not there anymore.
Oftentimes, those picks are more tied to the GM than they are the head coach.
We know Kevin has a huge say in the building, but oftentimes that pick is more tied to the general manager, so that tie isn't there anymore.
And if you remember the draft process, and, and we talked , I think a lot during the draft, Connor, and it's like, Everybody was all over the map on JJ McCarthy.
Mhm.
It wasn't like a universal, this is a top 10 pick.
I mean, I remember the Falcons literally canceled their visit with him.
They were like, no, we don't need to see JJ McCarthy.
I don't know if they got it right with Pennick, but they didn't like JJ McCarthy .
And so, like, the perception of him in the league, talking to other coaches is, oh, the Vikings are done with him.
I don't know, the Vikings aren't gonna say that, and I don't think the Vikings are fully done with him, but that's a perception with enough people around the league that I've talked to.
That have said, oh, they're, they've completely moved on.
And so, where is JJ McCarthy?
Because the one advantage he had over Kyler, and I, it might be the only advantage, is that he's been in the system longer.
That, uh, to me right now, that might be the only advantage he has, so, I toss it back to you with this.
Is he tradable?
I don't think he gets traded just where I stand right now, today.
But is he tradable because the longer you wait, the control you would have over him if you're the new team, the age, all of that, as time goes on, is not as valuable for you as the new team, or for you as the Vikings to get as much for him as possible.
Do you see him as tradable?
I don't see him as tradable for two reasons.
One, if you're Kevin O'Connell, I mean, I would need to control the destination because I was thinking about this with Anthony Richardson to a lesser degree.
Um, but if you're, you know, you're looking at Mac Jones in San Francisco now or Sam Darnold and what he did in San Francisco, and if you're Kevin O'Connell, like there's probably a part of you that wants the best for, for everybody.
But if you're a former NFL, Back, can you stomach this guy going to the Rams and backing up, you know, uh , backing up Matt Stafford and, uh, and Ty Simpson and then getting in a preseason game and throwing for 350 yards?
It's like the number one fear in the NFL, honestly, a quarterback playing better in a different building and, and, and the, the, the, the disease of I can fix it among quarter.
Quarterback coaches, offensive coordinators, and head coaches with a background on offense, it is pervasive.
It's like the hantaviruss.
It's like anytime these guys see somebody throw a football in a on another team that's bad, they're sitting there going, Oh, I can fix it.
I can wait till I get my hands on it.
Wait until I get my hands on him, right?
And so I, if if that's O'Connell, it's, it's almost like .
It's not an Ayuk situation, but it's like, I'd rather just sit on him and then, you know, let him go to free agency.
I'll get a comp pick and then we move on, we wash our hands of it.
I see that being the more realistic path.
I also look at what Kyler has done in terms of health-wise the last several years, since 2022, it's 11, 208, 2017, and 2005.
Um, so is he staying on, like, I, I would just say, you might see both of them play this year, um, and so this one is to me, uh, you have to watch, and then the other part with JJ is.
I There was a certain traffic stop that happened, and a certain comment was made.
Reporters gonna ask about that, Connor, like right from the jump, because I, I hate to, I hate to go this route because this story has been just, but If there is a text exchange with the head coach, and then JJ McCarthy sucks has said, there are gonna be enough people that say, is that either the opinion or an influenced opinion or information from the head coach.
I would think Kevin's going to get asked this on the first day.
Another reason why to to watch this first week in in Minnesota.
I, you're absolutely right.
And I didn't think about that for context, for those of you who don't know, uh, so Diana Rossini, the, the sort of the second leg of this Diana Rossini story was a, a traffic stop where she claimed to FaceTime an NFL head coach to get out of a ticket.
Turns out she didn't, uh, FaceTime an NFL head coach, but the body cam footage, uh, revealed that the cop was a Vikings fan and she said something to the effect of, oh, well, your quarterback sucks.
Um, Diana, uh, is, you know, it's not like we, we have to, she's interviewed Kevin O'Connell.
I mean, there's videos of it.
You can, I mean, she, she showed the text messages that she's exchanged with Kevin O'Connell, then says your quarterback sucks.
I'm just saying I've gotten messages from people in the league going like, aren't people gonna put Put that together that that's like, is that coming from Kevin O'Connell like and even if, even if a reporter doesn't, you know, you, you can bet that JJ McCarthy has, right?
It's a perfect way to put it, yeah, and so I think that that's something that at least needs to be, um, addressed in the building.
All right, I, I'm gonna pivot because from, so from Kyler's current team to his former team, one thing I'm watching for the first week because again, I think that there are occurrences over the first week of training camp that have no bearing on a season.
See, what was it, 2021 when, remember when Ja'Marr Chase couldn't catch during his first training camp.
Turns out that that was a little bit of a nothing burner, right?
Yeah, he turned out all right.
You know, I, I think he had a pretty decent NFL career to this day.
The Arizona Cardinals are the heavy betting favorite to have the number one pick in the upcoming draft .
They have a new head coach who I think, If they were to see how the head coaching cycle had played out, I don't know if they would have fired Jonathan Gannon.
I think that they were going, thought they were going to be a big fish in a little pond.
They turned out to be the smallest fish in a gigantic pond.
Needing head coaches, you end up kind of poaching a non-play calling coordinator from within the division.
Um, this is not a staff that anyone's like buzzing about, um, even though I think that Nate Hackett has, has, has taken some unfair lumps throughout his journey here in the NFL and I do think he's a good coordinator under the right circumstances.
I think they got, I think they misplayed the draft or at least they were stuck in a spot where they had to take Jeremiah Love after already loading up on the running back position.
So there's not a lot of immediate improvement on the roster.
And I say all that to say this.
If the first week of that camp is a disaster, and again, like the quarterback situation, it's a gigantic question mark.
I mean, are you just going to start the 3rd round pick in Carson Beck at this point?
Um, you know, if that first week of camp is an unmitigated disaster, Mike LaFleur is a great guy.
Uh, I, I'm interested to see what his chaos management skills are like.
Um, if the idea that this team is a dumpster fire is pervasive after 7 days, How do you stop that avalanche from rolling downhill?
Because this is, you know, and, and everyone will say the schedule doesn't matter this time of year.
It does when you look at the Cardinals schedule.
Like, that matters.
That schedule is relentless.
And it's even relentless if some of the teams on that schedule end up having a slightly worse season than we imagined them to be.
I don't see them beating a lot of those teams.
I think I have, you know, in my early projections, like a three-win season at the max.
I'm dying to know how this team looks out of the gate because, man, uh, you know, Arch Manning is at play here.
Dante Moore is in play here.
Um, there are bigger things than much bigger things, especially with this quarterback class coming, assuming that all these guys come out and maybe Arch Manning doesn't come out if he sees the Cardinals there.
I don't know.
Um, This has legs, right?
Similar to when I think we all thought the Cardinals are going to be really bad the year before Caleb Williams came out.
They turned out to Jonathan Gannon kind of got them going.
They won a few more games than we expected, but I don't see that.
They're like, you know, so I , I, I don't know.
I, I'm, I'm dying to know what they look like.
It's kind of the long and short of it, right?
That's gonna be the, I, I love that you pointed it out because I hate to say this, like all my years at NFL Network, it was like we probably made the fewest stops in Arizona during inside training camp live with guys like me that are getting sent to a dozen camps throughout the course of training camp.
We probably paid attention to the Cardinals, some of the least of any of the teams, and, and you had a top pick in Kyler out there as the quarterback.
During that stretch.
So you're putting a light on it, Connor, I think is very appropriate because I, I, I know Mike a little bit.
Um, I think he is a guy that, that is very smart, has a, has a really distinct plan about what he wants to do.
He has a lot of confidence in how he operates.
He has confidence in how he wants something to be built from the ground up, and he thinks in the present, what do we do?
5 steps down the road, how is it, how is it gonna play out into that?
Like, he, he thinks of all of these things.
But he hasn't been the guy in charge of all of it, and you're, you're perfectly right when blank happens, and now we need to pivot and it's all really falling on you, where does kind of Michael forego with all this, and then I tie this into last year at camp.
There were, if you remember, like, really high expectations in Arizona.
It was like, we've gotten better under Jonathan Gannon each and every year, right?
Like it was kind of like, this is our first year where we were able to actually even participate in free agency to like get our Team over the hump to maybe find some pieces, and there were like some real expectations.
Now, I was told about those and then there was a caveat, and I think now we understand why, where it was like, it still hinges on the quarterback.
It still hinges on how he plays, and they were well aware of that.
But they do believe, dating back to last year, like, man, we've kind of built this the right way, like, with the way we've picked a tackle at the top of the draft.
I still think Marvin Harrison Junior is like, not a bust by any stretch, I just think it's taking a minute.
I think the quarterback play did play into it a little bit, which is why I was bringing up the Justin Jefferson thing.
Professional on-time receivers struggle with Kyler Murray.
I hate to just, that's just the way it is.
I want the ball here when I'm here, and it oftentimes is not because Kyler plays a very freewheeling style.
Right.
Marvin, I think, We've seen him play better with with Jacoby Brissett, in all honesty.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and so, like, the skill group's not terrible.
I think, I think they were locked in though, and I think you're right, like, I, my understanding in the draft, making my calls like that day was like, teams 3 and 4 are just stuck.
Like the Titans and the Cardinals are just stuck here.
Nowhere to go.
Yeah, and like , they can't, they try to move out, they can't go anywhere, so we're picking these 2 players.
Um, and, and I, I do wanna see, like, how creative he can be.
With that pick, because you were stuck to get him, you have a loaded backfield already.
All right, what, what all can you give me and do with Jeremiah Love?
Maybe you can be excited.
I don't know.
It's, it's going to be hard.
And I think the one thing that's important to mention is that when Mike was the offensive coordinator of the Jets, play calling offensive coordinator of the Jets , it was Zach Wilson and Chris Strebeer and like, you know, who I thought was the guy who sang the national anthem before the Super Bowl two years ago and it's apparently like a, A backup quarterback for the Jets at one point.
Um, it got meager there and he was a, let's call it what it is, right?
He was a Woody Johnson walks into the building for the first time in 3 months and goes, uh, let's fire somebody guy, right?
Mike never got the chance to develop his play caller, but when he did, he got Garrett Wilson the ball, uh, even with really bad quarterback options on the, on the depth chart, right?
Uh, my, my concern is that, and I have the schedule here in front of me.
You start the season at Los Angeles with a fully healthy Chargers team, then Seattle, then San Francisco, then cross-country to the New York Giants, which is possible winning game.
I'm not overrating the Giants at this point, and we'll get to them in a second.
The Detroit Lions, who I think might have the highest win total in football this year, the Los Angeles Rams, the Denver Broncos, the Dallas Cowboys, the Seattle Seahawks, the Los Angeles Rams, the Kansas City.
Like it just goes on and on and on.
And there's no bye-week until week 13.
If you're starting Carson Beck, that guy's not going to be able to come up for air until very late in the season, uh, and, and recover his body after a long football, like, It's just like, and, and maybe they're the plucky story of the season, but I think 4.5, which is the Vegas win total for them, is dangerously high.
Like, it's insanely high.
Um, and I don't know, man.
I, I just, um, I, I hope I'm wrong.
I, I do, I do, honestly, because I like Mike, and, and I, and I do think they have the potential to, like, almost like, if the right quarterback comes in there in 27, who, who knows what, and , and he turns out to be a really good head coach, who knows?
I, this, I, I wanted to ask you this before we move on to my next one.
Do you think when you were going through that schedule, in my mind, I'm going, man, I sure remember being in Denver for a lot of those days where we just watched it snowball out of control with Nathaniel Hackett.
Do you think Nate's experience in Denver, and I know he still talks with Mike about what went wrong and what didn't really, what the mistakes he made, that if he had to do it again, he'd changed them.
Do you think that experience could Help them in any sense this year just because I know Nathaniel Hackett still thinks about a lot of the things that went wrong in Denver and a lot of, I don't know, it's not I could have, would have, should have, but it's like I wish I would have known this and I would have done this and then I would have done this.
Do you think that's valuable when you mentioned the schedule that they have to just.
Navigate the waters maybe slightly better.
I think it's valuable.
So Denver at the time that Hackett was there, this was not when the Penners owned it.
This is still when, well, it was transitioning.
It was transitioning to the Penners, right?
Um, and I think because of that there was a lot of uncertainty about what this should look like and you know, do we have the right guy, all this kind of stuff, and there's all these voices, you know, from the old office that felt like they were being pushed out and then the new guys that were coming in.
And I think what Nate's experience probably taught us is that if there is instability at the ownership position.
Um, or the ownership position is not classically revered as good.
Um, you always have to have your ass on a swivel.
And I think that's probably the best piece of advice that he can give Michael Floyd because, uh, you know, if you're power ranking bottom five owners, uh, you know, I would say, you know, Arizona is definitely, uh, up there.
Uh, and, you know, this is a, this is an owner with a one and done.
Um, on his, uh, on his bingo card here in the last 5 years.
And, you know, so I think if you're Nate, what is probably valuable is saying like, Almost as important as having the thing buttoned up on the field is having the perception that it's buttoned up off the field.
Does that make sense?
That makes total sense because both of those occurred in Denver.
Like it was off the field transparency, communication, things like that within the building while this.
Transitions going on, which is kind of ironic because the Walton Pener Group has now already solidified themselves as like one of the best ownership.
Oh yeah.
Like it happened very quickly, but they were, like, barely really there.
I think it had to, if you remember right, when the trade happened and then they needed to give Russell Wilson a contract and, like, it was all this was kind of happening at the same time.
I think you're exactly right.
I, I think it's a good way to put it.
I was just, it just kind of came to my mind going, like, how could you spin a negative into helping you navigate a possible another negative?
I don't know.
Um, boy, that's a Hackett though is the ultimate foxhole guy.
Like, and, and, and I will say that that is being totally overlooked, uh, and , and I, you know, I did this big thing on Jeremiah Love, uh, for a draft preview issue.
You can find it at SI.
com.
It came out back in March.
And I was thinking about the kind of coaches who, you know, because I'm a Notre Dame fan passively in my spare time and I really liked watching him play in college.
I understood that he is a unique person, um, uh, and has a unique background.
And I was thinking like, who are the coaches that I think would really work with this guy?
And Nate comes to mind.
Like he really does.
He is someone who can work with anyone.
He's someone who can teach anyone.
He's someone who can motivate anyone.
And I don't know.
I, I hope that they are the surprise team.
I hope that I'm not.
Five days into training camp and saying my God, Carson Beck has 31 interceptions and Marvin Harrison's spiking the football and kicking over the Gatorade bucket and right because it's one way or the other, you know, and, and, and I don't think there's any in between.
Give me another one.
OK.
My other one is this.
We have a lot of new play callers this year.
But there's 2 that I have my eye on, and they're both in the AFC West.
And they're in very similar situations, and that is, what are we going to see in that first week with Mike McDaniel coming in and running an offense of a very hyper intense individual of Jim Harbaugh, and Davis Webb in Denver, running the offense for a hyper intense individual in Sean Payton.
Now, they've obviously got to where they're at, Connor, in, in two different ways.
Mike is a former head coach now that's been fired and took an offensive coordinator job.
Davis Webb is on a skyrocketing trajectory in a lot of people's minds to getting his first head coaching opportunity, but are they like, and I listed it, almost in like, identical situations, like they're both taking over.
For an offensive coordinator that was borderline a consigliere for these guys in Greg Roman and Joe Lombardi, like, they have been tied to these head coaches for a very long time, and these guys both come in and now we're gonna be taking over the offense.
I know they're very happy in their respective organizations.
I know that, I think they're in very good spots that they both have a young talented quarterback.
They have good offensive lines, in all honesty , strong skill players, like they have a good setup and an infrastructure for them offensively.
And if things go well for both of them, or either one.
The next head coaching job could be next season.
It could be the 27th season for one, if not both of them, if the offense goes well.
And the way I wanted to spin it to you was, I think there's a lot of pressure coming from the head coach, it's different from each of them, but I think both head coaches have some pressure on them, and I look at Jim Harbaugh and go, they paid a ton of money for Harbaugh, and they haven't had a playoff win yet.
And when does it start to become a little bit of a pressure situation for Harbaugh?
And when things get to that environment, Connor, we saw it in Philadelphia last year, where a lot of people said, you know, I think Nick Seriani is at his best when he's the CEO and he can.
Kind of bounced from all these different rooms, and I've talked to the coaches there and they love it the way when things are going great, he can, he can help Vic, you know, motivate guys during the week and help Kellen Moore, but then when it goes wrong, and this is just human nature, you start to meddle, you start to, if we're gonna go down, we're going down my way, like, we're gonna do it my way and the head coach really steps in after they've handed over the play calling.
With Sean Payton, I look at his situation and go, Connor, how many guys have won a Super Bowl with two different teams as a head coach?
0.
Yeah.
Nobody's ever done it.
I think Sean Payton understands that he has an opportunity to do it, and he is a student and a, a, a just a historian of the game and believes that that could help him get into the Hall of Fame.
It's a lot of pressure in that.
You, you like, it's like, I just look at the way both these men are wired.
I think they trust them.
We haven't really gotten into the, the nitty gritty yet, but I think they trust both of these really, really bright offensive minds to take their good offenses to another level.
But just how does that whole relationship work?
And I think we'll get some tells for the first time in the first week of training camp with both of them.
Uh, if, if you haven't had a chance to read, uh, Seth Wickersham over at ESPN did a, uh, 2 weeks with, or whatever it was, 15 days with the Broncos leading up to, um, the, the loss in the AFC championship game.
Um, and, and if you're wondering about Davis Webb in particular, so Vance Joseph was one of the best defensive coordinators in football last year, and he was roundly dressed down by Peyton consistently in front of the rest of the staff and like support staff and in big meetings, right?
And Vance had to sit there and take it.
Vance is a former head coach.
I think Vance will be a head coach again.
Um, and wonderful guy, former Broncos head coach.
Um, if you think that Sean Payton isn't going to chew Davis Webb's ass out every single week and to be in that, in that earpiece and say, well, I would have done this and I would have done that because I think his decision to promote Davis is twofold.
One, I think he had to.
Because Davis Webb was getting hot, I think a lot of teams were looking for him.
And here's an unbelievable opportunity for Davis to call an offense, a really good offense, before going out and, and coaching a really bad team.
He was the runner-up at two spots.
He's the runner-up at 2 spots, yeah, um, what's the other one?
Well, you said twofold.
What's the other one?
Well, the other part of it is, I think that the other part of that decision was Peyton, and we all saw it.
I mean, I was at that game.
Uh, I was watching him at that postgame press conference.
He knew in that moment that he needed to take more of a personal look at total game situational football, right?
And there was the, the missed opportunity on the 4th-down call, and then there was the fact that the Broncos looked just blindsided by the weather and completely taken aback by the way that the weather changed that game.
Those are technically, Things that are on the head coach's plate.
And I think if you're Peyton, it's like, well, I could probably still kind of be the angel offensive coordinator in some way, shape or form, but I can have more of an eye on this or how I motivate the team or how I dial up the guys, whatever.
But you got to bet that he is going to be on Davis Webb just as bad, if not worse.
Than the way that he was on Drew Brees as a quarterback, and it takes a certain kind of person to decide whether that's something you want to sign up for.
Yeah, and, and I, you know, coming back, I think he thought this was his best path, um, from some of the options that he had.
I was told he interviewed outstanding, but then one team that, that, that he was essentially the runner up for was like, But he's gonna benefit from going back and being with Sean, even if he hates it for another year.
Like, it's gonna benefit him as a coach.
And I think Davis has a, a, an open enough mind to know that this is like a, a, a really good spot for me in terms of my growth.
He has a great relationship with Bo.
I don't think Sean, there's a third part to it, that I don't think Sean would have handed this off to anybody.
Right.
I think he saw it and Sean is smart enough, he's extremely smart, on a day to day basis just to see what Davis brings to the table.
Yeah, that's what Davis brings to the table.
And I just remember, I was at that preseason game, ironically enough, the one that he called, um, that Davis Webb called, and I went up to Jarrett Stidham at his locker and I was like, what do you think?
And he's like, looked around, he's like, Due to his effing unbelievable.
Like, he, he, he was like , it was unbelievable, and Jarrett's been in the game for a long time, he's been a lot of around, a lot of great offensive coaches, um, he's been in New England, he's been to other places, and so he was like, it was, it was unbelievable.
And so I think Sean saw that as well, and I think that other part that I mentioned, Connor, is part of this, like, he can help us be better.
Um, is it gonna be like a smooth operation?
We're gonna watch it happen, um, but I just think it's gonna be with the way both of these head coaches are wired.
Um, definitely something to, to keep an eye on, and I gotta mention a schedule because I do think it does help the Broncos a little bit cause there's a bit of an unknown there in terms of what does Davis do a little bit differently.
They now have Jaylen Waddle in the mix.
How is the offense maybe slightly different than than what we saw with Sean Payton.
The beginning of their schedules not easy.
The Broncos start with at the Chiefs, which the complete unknown to open the season might be a positive, honestly.
Um, at the Chiefs, Jaguars, Rams, at 49ers, at Chargers, Seahawks.
That's, that's the start for, for Davis Webb here, um, in this spot, but I just think there's so many questions in both cities about what's this going to look like and how much power and final say are these two men going to get.
I think when you're out there every day in the first week, you might start to get some of your first inklings.
McDaniel, I think it's funny.
I mean, it's like, you know, I, and I, I, I feel like I'm saying this to the point where people are going to eventually tune me out and that's fine.
James is on Reddit right now.
Um, the, uh, this is not good.
Justin Herbert isn't throwing for 5000 yards.
Like everyone's always like, oh, this, Justin Herbert's gonna go, he's gonna go through the roof.
Justin Herbert already did that.
He threw for 5000 yards with Joe Lombardi as his offensive coordinator, right?
I mean, that already happened.
And I think Mike McDaniel or anybody is smart enough to know, and Sean McVeigh with Matt Stafford or any of these guys is, it's like, you want to treat a truly exceptional quarterback the way that you would treat a bad rookie quarterback, which is you want to surround him with a great offensive line, a great running game, and you want to limit all the things that he has to do so he can be exceptional when he has to.
To be exceptional.
Throw in 68 tight ends as well that they've signed, uh, on this roster as well.
Yeah, it's like you don't bring in Charlie Koehler and you already had Matt Locke , but you bring in Alec Ingold.
It's like, do we think that this team is gonna double that, is gonna double their passing attempts?
Hell no.
But they may go up in points though.
They might go up in points.
It'd be fun to watch, um, but yeah, I, I agree.
I think it's gonna be much more of an eyes on Webb.
Uh, my last thought there is that.
I do wonder, and I don't think this is something that Peyton would ever admit to himself, but in reading that Seth story.
One of the great, uh, uh, football writers that I barely had the chance to work with, I drove him to a horse race once, Jerry Eisenberg, um, legendary, uh, uh, uh, Star Ledger columnist, uh, but he wrote books about Bill Parcells, and one of them was called No Medals for Trying.
He spent a season embedded with the Parcells Giants.
Sean Payton sounds like Parcells, which makes sense.
He quotes him all the time.
Quotes him all the time, you know, he still talks to him, all that kind of stuff.
At some point, you have to recognize when your message is wearing thin or is not getting across.
And I think that he had some moments of intensity with Davis Webb or, uh, with Bo Nix on the sideline last year, and he had him without all quarterbacks, right?
Uh, you know, but at what point is it might be like, maybe it's better that Davis Webb has this conversation.
than I do, you know, it's just plain and simple.
No, it's I, I get it.
Yeah.
I, I think he likes Bo's fire and Bo's fire back at him plenty.
Yeah.
And I think Sean is one of the guys that doesn't back down to that, he almost embraces it and goes, good, I, I, you got a little leap to you.
Um, but at the same time, I think he does understand that, like, hey, now he can be like, Davis, can you do this?
Like, I know Bo mentioned, and then this will be my last part on it, is Bo mentioned, like, I feel like Sean's gonna be a little bit more of my quarterback coach.
Like, he's gonna have less of the full offensive game planning, taking up his time that he can look at me and be like, hey, check your footwork on that, or, or make sure you check your shoulder on that, and Bo's kind of looking forward to maybe that style of relationship with it, and we'll see if it, if it, if it works.
It's gonna be fun to watch.
I mean, it really, it, it, to me, it's one of the better storylines of the year after going to the AFC Championship game.
My last one, James, is short and it's sweet and it's simple.
We have a new head coach of the New York Giants who's taking this team into the West Virginia Heat in the Greenbrier.
He just released his practice schedule, which is absolutely relentless, doesn't include a lot of time off.
And you have guys, a, a team that, and I'm not saying this to pile on Joe Shane, but I think toward the end of the Brian Dabable era, And really, I mean, the, the entirety of the Brian Deal era, they knew that they needed to upgrade talent quickly, so quickly that I think perhaps, Character was not always at the forefront of that decision-making.
So, for example, I think it's fair to say that someone like Kavon Thibodeaux probably turned a lot of other teams off during the pre-draft process, but the Giants are like , I don't care.
He's exceptional.
He's a playmaker.
We need him on the roster.
Malik Neighbors, I know, you know, had some teams being like, woof, OK, you know, during the pre-draft process, you know, OK, interesting.
Um, And you know, but the talent is undeniable , right?
Abdul Carter, same thing, came right in last year and said, I would like to wear Lawrence Taylor's number.
And even at the end of a lost season when he was late for meetings and getting benched, was tweeting about how he should be Defensive Rookie of the Year.
OK, Cam Scatabo, uh, you know, just follow him around for a couple of hours, right?
I thought you're just gonna end after saying his name.
OK, go ahead, you know, I just, yeah, and so that team.
Uh, has now got to go to the Greenbrier and practice harder than they've probably practiced since their sophomore year of high school, over and over and over again.
Um, and, you know, very limited days off.
You have a coach who's not going to take any BS.
Um, you have an offensive coordinator who's coming from the last job where he's coaching Patrick Mahomes.
So my guess is, even if you try to build in, The idea that this might be worse, it's impossible, right?
Like, it's like when I'm coaching my older, my oldest child at something and we're playing catch, and then you go to the middle one and they can't throw the ball and you, you get frustrated because you, you forget, you forget the differences.
He was on a 700 level class with Patrick Mahomes going into training camp the last year, like, you know what I mean?
Like, we've already been together, we've done this, we're already here.
He's not there with the, with this few quarterbacks.
They also have a lot of, What's your take on the number of offensive minds that are on this staff?
There's, there's a lot of them.
Like, I, I'm just kind of curious how, how everybody finds their place.
Um, yes.
And, and, and, and I think that is the other part of it, right, where Brian Dabel's staff was roundly praised, his first one, for being a collection of people that he wasn't friends with.
So you had Mike Kafka and Wink Martindale, and everybody thought, this is great, more coaches should do this.
So then Frank Reich did it in Carolina and put together one of the most combustible staffs.
Um, that was an unmitigated disaster.
Now you're seeing coaches kind of flip back the other way where when Clint Kubiak got the job in Las Vegas, it was always going to be Andrew Ginoco.
Like it was always going because that's the guy he trusts in that spot to coach, um, his, his guys.
Um, this is not a similar setup.
But it's interesting in that it's like, it resembles a classic Giant staff where the mayors will come in and be like, oh, Joe Judge, like, here's Jason Garrett.
Like, what do you think about this, right?
And because Todd Monken gets the Browns job, a lot of things just collapse through the cellar.
And now it's like, now you're grabbing at free-falling objects and trying to put it together.
Greg Roman does that run game, Mayor and his insistence on how it's supposed to work.
Mary, What Matt Nagy wants to do with the quarterback, I think certain things could be good for certain people, but this is a big job .
This is probably John Harbaugh's toughest job at managing coaching personalities, never mind player personalities, but he's got a lot on his plate, man, a lot on his plate.
Brian Callahan's in the mix there as the passing game coordinator in the court.
Another fiery guy, exactly.
So, and who has pelts on the wall?
Like, a lot of these guys have worked with really talented quarterbacks and really talent and had big numbers on offense.
Um, and I, and I think that's that, you know, managing all of that, you're right, it's just another aspect of what he has to do.
Um, I brought it up one other, one time, and I don't wanna be the guy that just says it over and over again, but On Steve Smith and I's show together, he brought this exactly up to me, Connor.
He has played for Harbaugh, he knows what the practices are like, and he was bringing up to me specific players in that Giants' locker room, where he was like, I wonder how this is, this guy's gonna take it.
I wonder how this guy is gonna do in camp.
I wonder how this guy is gonna, he even mentioned a couple of rookies, like, so there, there is that thought from people that know John and and going.
How does, how does he get his message to the next group and not turn anybody off and, and have everybody buy in.
Now, sometimes when it's new, when it's a group that hasn't won, it's easier to buy in sometimes, for sure.
Um, have you been to the Greenbrier, by the way?
Oh yeah, I love the Greenbrier.
Do you really?
It's creepy, right?
I, it's, it's like, it's like The Shining.
It's exact, that's exactly what it is, right?
So, um, I went on, uh, the last time I went was a training camp tour where the Texans were there, and, uh, my wonderful former colleague Jenny V Rentis and I were like, we just got to have lunch at this freaking place and see what's going on here.
And I remember this old woman that was dressed like the Queen of England and even had like the hat and it was tea time and was just staring at me and I took a picture of her because I was like, whatever, what you're going to throw me out of here um that look at you bad boy at the Greenbrier.
That's right.
Uh, back then it was like a BlackBerry, so it looks like, you know, it was like a grainy photo.
I still have it actually fits the time period of what the Greenbrier looks like it's in, yeah.
Underneath it is like a bunker.
That's where Congress was going to escape, very much so.
In an airport, like, I've never flown out of an airport where there's just, you see people sitting on rocking chairs next to the runway, uh, just like watching planes take off on a Saturday.
Um, but it is, I mean, it is because, because of the personalities that are on both sides in terms of the coaching staff and the players.
I, I think it's, it's certainly one to watch in, in the first week for sure, um, because, you know, something needs to be established and, and John Harbaugh knows that.
Remember this when at the trade deadline, I can almost guarantee that of Carter, um, Thibodeaux and neighbors we're at least having a vaguely serious conversation about one of them.
Likely Thibodeaux not being there, right?
The other two as young as they the contract, yeah, it, it makes it hard to, you know, it makes it hard to imagine, but I, I, you know, maybe one of them is benched, but, you know, who knows.
But I'm just saying that like this is New York, it's, it's a different situation.
I know how Harbaugh has liked to run things in Baltimore, a little bit harder here, uh, but who knows, right?
Uh, uh, this place is a kingmaker and also can turn you into.
Uh, I'm trying to think of what the, see, all the bad examples are good like Joe Judge is a great guy.
Ben McAdoo is an awesome guy.
It's not like it didn't, Ben McAdoo made the playoffs.
I mean, you know, whatever.
Don't go on a boat in Miami is I guess what I'm trying to say, you know.
Don, I like you told everybody that during vacation season.
Well, hopefully you're listening to this on a boat in Miami, um, but James Palmer can't appreciate enough you coming on pinch hitting for Albert Breer.
I think I've effectively made him as jealous as I possibly could have, um, which is good.
I need to chap his ass a little bit.
I need him back, um, from this vacation, fiery, you know, you need to bring in competition.
Uh, you are my Kyler Murray, and for that.
I can't say thank you enough.
Yeah, I mean, he's dealing with stolen bikes.
He's dealing with all sorts of stuff right now.
Yeah, follow the Breer, uh, Twitter saga here.
Uh, I, you know, he's going Liam Neeson on taking to get his son's 10 speed back.
Yeah, this is a prized possession, he said.
I hope he gets it.
We'll be back with one more episode this week and it's gonna be a banger.
A former, um, analytics expert for an NFL team is going to take us into the world of high-end decision-making.
You're not gonna want to miss it.
Keep it locked on the MMQB podcast, and we will see you later on.
